McLaren has been disqualified from the 2007 and 2008 F1 seasons

[GT3]

now silverfish, zephyred

well guys, FA does whinge.. i think there is probably less than a handful of F1 drivers who does not (not my words btw, its word of some senior f1 journalist from autosport and f1racing).. as I mentioned earlier, his comments just got more coverage coz he is the double world champion.. does that make him uncool? yea maybe but ugly side? nah i don think so.. in fact i think that makes him more human.. less of a PR machine or a MR. ICE such as Kimi.. and to some ppl, easier to relate to..

anyway my point is, u gotta respect or admire a guy who crack under intense pressure, whinge, then pick himself up, beat his opponent and win the world championship.. his is probably miles better than ralf.. haha who whinge and do not win WC.. or mr. ICE who don whinge but sometimes just give ups when things are not right.. on this i rank him just below MS and that is because MS, like fvel describe, don even whinge in public, just refocus and get the job done

also, i think he is confident, just tat at previous season his confident never got tested to such extent. this season however like I mentioned in previous post, he grown up, more confident and calm (qualities shown from the last few races btw)..

what is ethical? he putting the team down? yea well he did provide information to FIA, so? he did not steal the information.. he got it from the CHIEF DESIGNER or SOMETHING from Mclaren.. who are accused to have steal it (or got it) from a disloyal ferrari staff.. so is he wrong by providing the information to FIA? don think so as MR. RON DENNIS himself wants him to anyway

btw, most ppl hate him becoz he beat KIMI and MS last 2 season and many of these 2 drivers fan cant take it..

 

[FVel]

One thing I like about this thread is we have been able to engage in debate without being obnoxious..... so kudos guys, and keep it up. Anyway back to your points :-

1. Yes, M. Schumi has driven dirty. No denying that. But big difference is Schumi never rat out any of his teams, whether it was Benetton, or Ferrari or whatever. He was a complete driver package, not only because he was uncompromising on the track but because he is a unifying influence in any team. He worked well with people and he got people to work together, through the bad times and the good times. Alonso, on the other, is a disruptive influence if things are not going well. It is true that F1 drivers want to win badly, but at what cost ?? I think people like Senna and Schumi won both by being talented and ruthless, but they were ruthless on-track and never off-track.

2. I'm still not entirely convinced there was any favouritism going on at McLaren. It's not as though Alonso was given a bad car or sub-standard components because he won or took pole about as many times as Hamilton did. I like to challenge anyone to point out significant performance difference bwteen Alonso's car and Hamilton's car. I couldn't see any difference. It's more a case about Alonso expecting McLaren to put Hamilton on a leash, which ultimately I think is also a very unfair thing to do if the other driver is equally as a good, or better, than Alonso. By the way, for me personally, having been on both sides of the fence - as an employee and now as a manager overseeing employees - I think it very very bad form for any employee to compromise his own team for personal gains. You simply can no longer place your trust and faith on individuals such as these.

3. First of all, I always maintained that the decision against McLaren was a witchhunt, motivated by so-called 'political correctness'. The reason I said so was that all these business about finding out what your opponent is running has been part of the F1 landscape for a long time. As Montoya said, the e-mails discussing competitor cars is commonplace. It's no big deal to do this in F1. I agree that Stepney and Couglan needs to be dealt with in the harshest sense because they engage in espionage in its pure sense, but when FIA started extending punitive measures towards personnel who merely talk about technical info in e-mails, I think that really begins to stretch FIA's credibility and impartiality.

4. Besides Montoya, a lot of F1 commentators also thought mere e-mails as no big deal. That should have been the end of it, but Alonso leverage this minor issue and turn it into something to threaten Ron. Yes, he did apologized afterwards but the damage from Alonso's actions was already done because Ecclestone and Mosley by then knew about the e-mails and the rest is history.

5. Alonso has tonnes of talent. I'm just not sure he has sufficient ethics. He's getting a little too political for my liking

 

[zephyr3d]

now silverfish, zephyred

well guys, FA does whinge.. i think there is probably less than a handful of F1 drivers who does not (not my words btw, its word of some senior f1 journalist from autosport and f1racing).. as I mentioned earlier, his comments just got more coverage coz he is the double world champion.. does that make him uncool? yea maybe but ugly side? nah i don think so.. in fact i think that makes him more human.. less of a PR machine or a MR. ICE such as Kimi.. and to some ppl, easier to relate to..

anyway my point is, u gotta respect or admire a guy who crack under intense pressure, whinge, then pick himself up, beat his opponent and win the world championship.. his is probably miles better than ralf.. haha who whinge and do not win WC.. or mr. ICE who don whinge but sometimes just give ups when things are not right.. on this i rank him just below MS and that is because MS, like fvel describe, don even whinge in public, just refocus and get the job done

also, i think he is confident, just tat at previous season his confident never got tested to such extent. this season however like I mentioned in previous post, he grown up, more confident and calm (qualities shown from the last few races btw)..

what is ethical? he putting the team down? yea well he did provide information to FIA, so? he did not steal the information.. he got it from the CHIEF DESIGNER or SOMETHING from Mclaren.. who are accused to have steal it (or got it) from a disloyal ferrari staff.. so is he wrong by providing the information to FIA? don think so as MR. RON DENNIS himself wants him to anyway

btw, most ppl hate him becoz he beat KIMI and MS last 2 season and many of these 2 drivers fan cant take it..

paying the mechanics? lol..... thatz extreme.

 

[zephyr3d]

well.. that may be others... i only hate him for him being himself... but i do respect him to finally bring Schumi's reign to an end... and making sure Kimi staying as the "almost champion" label.

 

[si|verfish]

I refuse to be drawn into another unending debate with GT3, so I appreciate FVel and zephy being here.

Suffice to say GT3, that Alonso is your scoundrel and therefore everything is fine with you. He's not mine and therefore his behaviour is more than annoying.

Then again, like I said, neither is Hamilton rubbing me the right way. I dunno, McLaren's my team but I can't get behind either of its drivers currently.

 

[FVel]

paying the mechanics? lol..... thatz extreme.

Actually it's not unusual in F1 for drivers to pay their mechanics a race bonus. From what I understood, it's mostly left to the driver's prerogative whether it is done and how much is paid. Various reasons for it but usual reasons are as an incentive to the team and also a driver's way of showing appreciation to his engineers and mechanics who work long hours to get the car ready. It's not normally something that is viewed upon as sinister, but in this instance when things have become so volatile at McLaren, the press tends to make a big deal out of something that is really nothing.

 

[GT3]

fvel,

I agreed completely with your first point on schumi.. like i said before.. i think he is the most complete driver package

FA on the other hand, I like him for his fierce competitiveness to a point is too hard for some to stomach.. Me defending his action well is purely because i think some comments in too harsh

I dont think Mclaren is playing obvious favourism.. hell they might not be doing at all... my arguement point was that MEDIA and PUBLIC keep pressuring FA, whcih caused FA to be paranoid and MAYBE the team did not do enough to comfort him or soften the competition.. therefore he complaints.. in which by the way could be a tactic to make sure the team doesnt dare to slack while giving SUPPORT (and not car).. anyway its probably Ron's preference.. to let team mate lash at each other to get their best (which sometimes proves costly)

point 3 is well said..

point 4, like u said, the email is a minor issue, and since FIA is on a leash to punish Mclaren (lets forget if they really deserve it yet for arguement sake) they will eventually find something to punish Mclaren.. and that something might not come from FA.. so FA caused the penalty? maybe he quicken the process but he is not the main person to blame

Point 5, drivers are human... so they tend to be different and is not likely to be like by everyone

 

[GT3]

Silverfish,

good idea cause everytime we DEBATE on this FA issue or KIMI issue it will be never ending

Also I know FA is not your favourate driver hence the comments.. again just wanted to defend those comments as I think its unfairly directed.. then again.. u would disagree so probably we shud just stop there? haha

well at least im more lucky than you on the team driver's selection.. i mean im nvr kimi's big fan but at least i dont hate him so im fine with him in Ferrari, also I quite like Massa so Im glad he is in Ferrari..

 

[GT3]

zephyr3d,

well cool that you respect his achievement.. cause many who does not like him will never confess to that

again like i mentioned to Silverfish.. I just commented cause i think those critics are unfairly directed.. nooffence intended..

 

[GT3]

Actually it's not unusual in F1 for drivers to pay their mechanics a race bonus. From what I understood, it's mostly left to the driver's prerogative whether it is done and how much is paid. Various reasons for it but usual reasons are as an incentive to the team and also a driver's way of showing appreciation to his engineers and mechanics who work long hours to get the car ready. It's not normally something that is viewed upon as sinister, but in this instance when things have become so volatile at McLaren, the press tends to make a big deal out of something that is really nothing.

good info fvel.. again like you just said.. press (MEDIA) is just making a big deal of the whole issue.. and on this particular case with FA coz like it anot... double world champion VS rookie in a team with SPY SCANDAL.. top press materials

 

[FVel]

Well, things with the Spaniard are very much a moot issue after his DNF at Fuji. Poor Alonso :) ......after all his desperate attemtps at politics and backroom intrigue, it is almost a certainty that he has lost the Championship. Unless Hamilton do some major screw-ups in the next two races, I don't see how Alonso will make up the points.

....all of which leaves us with the imminent unprecedented situation of a driver winning the F1 Championship on his rookie year. Amazing.