McLaren has been disqualified from the 2007 and 2008 F1 seasons

[zephyr3d]

looks like it takes just one bad apple to spoil the entire bucket of apples.

 

[zephyr3d]

Hamilton's lawyer is appealing to not stip the drivers' points of both drivers and in hope that hamilton will be the first rookie champion.

well.. even if Hamilton does win the championship, it will always be tainted... sad story...

fuck the fellas that leaked info and fuck alonso for his stupid egoistic attitude.

 

[FVel]

The news about Hamilton's lawyer appealing against driver ban is from the transcript of the WMC/FIA Paris hearing that had been concluded recently.

The final decision is there will not be a ban against any driver for this year. For next year McLaren will be allowed to compete but must show that no Ferrari intellectual property had been incorporated into their cars.

So, no worries mate.

 

[BlackSamurai]

DLR and Alonso did not contact Nigel directly and this is not evident in his e-mail. All DLR said was that the info came from Mike Couglan via Nigel Stepney. Presumably, DLR heard about Couglan having the info and asked him about it and how he got it. Couglan must have told DLR the info was from Nigel. DLR then told Alonso the details.

I see. thanks again.

 

[prodigy]

I have a feeling Alonso will nick it from Hamilton this time. Hamilton may have had a good season but he lacks the cutting edge or rather the championship mentality that Alonso has. That is unless Hamilton digs deep and stays focus to complete the job rather than buckle under pressure. I'd really love to see Hamilton win this year. As much for the brilliance of Alonso this year, he's been a complete pain in the ass for Mclaren in the sense that he's betrayed the entire team by reporting them to the FIA. I hope he leaves Mclaren after this season and join Renault/Toyota/Spyker and rot over there.

 

[FVel]

To be honest, I initially wanted Alonso to win because Hamilton's tactics was somewhat dirty since Monaco and especially Hungary.

But......Alonso has since shown us what a complete drama queen he can become and what lowly things he can do. Even someone as ruthless as M. Schumacher was never this bad. Michael was a complete professional with whichever team he belonged ..Benetton, Ferrari etc.

So I guess ...Hamilton for 2007. He might be a egotistical little prick, but since there is now little to choose between him and Alonso in terms of personality, why not Hamilton for the Champion in 2007. Alonso's already won twice. Hamilton winning on his rookie year will be unprecedented and interesting.

One thing's for sure. That mad Spaniard will go balls-out right up to the last race. Judging by Alonso's 2007 mentality, he has a blind desperation about him.

Controversy makes for exciting TV.

 

[Black Mamba]

i think at this point McLaren would reduce their comittment to Alonso's glory on track....he is sure to leave at the end of the season....Frank Williams would rather see him rot in spyker without the title than with......As well Alonso has proven to be not the team player....he betrayed all. Dun know the big players would want to have such an idiot on their hands.....after all....its a mclaren car which has put him in second spot...

 

[GT3]

hmmmm... i think its abit un-fair to say FA betrayed the team. I mean first of all, he did not contact FIA direct with the information, RON did it remember? and also it shows that FA did not provide these information first round to protect the team. he also retracted that he have these information after he cooled down BUT FIA already convinced something is happening and therefore subpeana ALL Mclaren Drivers to provide anything they know abt this scandal and there would be penalty if they do not coorperate.. put urself in the shoe? what will u be doin? especially if you think ur employer is playing favourism..

 

[FVel]

i think at this point McLaren would reduce their comittment to Alonso's glory on track.....Frank Williams would rather see him rot in spyker without the title than with......

Frank Williams is not from McLaren.

 

[FVel]

hmmmm... i think its abit un-fair to say FA betrayed the team. I mean first of all, he did not contact FIA direct with the information, RON did it remember? and also it shows that FA did not provide these information first round to protect the team. he also retracted that he have these information after he cooled down BUT FIA already convinced something is happening and therefore subpeana ALL Mclaren Drivers to provide anything they know abt this scandal and there would be penalty if they do not coorperate.. put urself in the shoe? what will u be doin? especially if you think ur employer is playing favourism..

Alonso had a hand in escalating the situation even if he did not made the initial moves with the FIA.

He had a shouting match with Ron after Hungary, in which Alonso threatened Ron that he will reveal incriminating e-mails if things at the team are not set right.

Obviously, fearing that the mad Spaniard may actually act out his threat like a loose cannon on deck, Ron tried to pre-empt this by going to Mosley first and telling Mosley that Alonso threatened to reveal some info.

What Ron did afterwards was understandable but not very defensible. He lied to Mosley by telling him there were no such e-mails and implied that Alonso's threat was an empty one.

Later on Mosley wrote to the drivers asking them to stand and give evidence and in return they will get immunity from prosecution. Seeing that an FIA superlicence is absolutely essential for any driver to have a hope to continue in F1, the choices are straightforward for the drivers who told to provide evidence.

You can pretty much say that no one is defensible in this mess. Ron obviously lied in the hopes of protecting his team from being torn apart.

Alonso, for his part, can be said to have acted according to FIA rules, but reflects very poorly on his team spirit, loyalty and professionalism towards his team. You should understand of course that the discussion of technical info on what other teams are doing is commonplace ever since F1 began, so the e-mails were not a case that is unique. Everyone is spying on everyone to get an edge. By the way, read Montoya's comments on the whole affair. He has the correct perspective :- http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070921142719.shtml


Another thing....if you read Alonso's e-mail replies to DeLarosa, you can clearly see that Alonso was very enthusiastic with the Ferrari info and in fact he encouraged further analysis on the Ferrari info, eg. the weight balance and the gas Ferrari used to fill the tyres.

He certainly condone the use of Ferrari info, but later used this as a leverage to threaten Ron.

I think this is very poor behavior from Alonso.

Finally, I also think there is some paranoia going on with Alonso. In 2007, he frequently accusses McLaren of playing favouritism with Hamilton because McLaren is British like Hamilton.

No michief has been proven of course. Personally, I think the guy simply underestimated the talent of Hamilton. Suddenly he's not used to pressure from a rookie. As a result he is losing his cool and starts blaming anything that is convenient. He showed signs of similar behavior in 2006 when he lashed out at Schumi during their closely fought title race (said something inthe papers about Schmi being ruthless and unfair).

 

[FVel]

One thing I find really hilarious and stupid about this whole spy affiar......

FIA wants the world to know that it will do everything to see that justice is done to protect the intergrity of top secret information, and in doing so it penalises McLaren heavily to protect Ferrari's confidential information.....BUT.......

FIA mistakenly leaked top secret Ferrari and McLaren information when they forgot to delete the info from their press release documents.

http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070922154959.shtml

LOL

the F***ing stupidity of the whole affair. FIA should slap a US$ 100 million ban on themselves for negligence.

 

[si|verfish]

I'll just summarise all this (especially FVel's excellent commentary) for easy reading.

- FIA are incompetent bungling buffoons.
- Ron Dennis is a lying son of a *****. But a fair one.
- Fernando Alonso is a self centred, egotistical, two faced, back stabbing, whingeing, annoying little fuck who happens to be a pretty damn good driver. And twice World Champ of course.
- Lewis Hamilton is a PR manufactured self serving cock but a very talented driver who is just as nasty as the other guy.
- Ferrari are manipulative, scheming bastards who took full advantage of the situation to basically wrap up the Constructors Championship.
- Nigel Stepney and Mike Coughlan are two really stupid intelligent people, who have managed to fuck themselves and McLaren in the arse with their pathetic attempt at industrial espionage.

 

[GT3]

Alonso had a hand in escalating the situation even if he did not made the initial moves with the FIA.

He had a shouting match with Ron after Hungary, in which Alonso threatened Ron that he will reveal incriminating e-mails if things at the team are not set right.

Obviously, fearing that the mad Spaniard may actually act out his threat like a loose cannon on deck, Ron tried to pre-empt this by going to Mosley first and telling Mosley that Alonso threatened to reveal some info.

What Ron did afterwards was understandable but not very defensible. He lied to Mosley by telling him there were no such e-mails and implied that Alonso's threat was an empty one.

Later on Mosley wrote to the drivers asking them to stand and give evidence and in return they will get immunity from prosecution. Seeing that an FIA superlicence is absolutely essential for any driver to have a hope to continue in F1, the choices are straightforward for the drivers who told to provide evidence.

You can pretty much say that no one is defensible in this mess. Ron obviously lied in the hopes of protecting his team from being torn apart.

Alonso, for his part, can be said to have acted according to FIA rules, but reflects very poorly on his team spirit, loyalty and professionalism towards his team. You should understand of course that the discussion of technical info on what other teams are doing is commonplace ever since F1 began, so the e-mails were not a case that is unique. Everyone is spying on everyone to get an edge. By the way, read Montoya's comments on the whole affair. He has the correct perspective :- http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070921142719.shtml


Another thing....if you read Alonso's e-mail replies to DeLarosa, you can clearly see that Alonso was very enthusiastic with the Ferrari info and in fact he encouraged further analysis on the Ferrari info, eg. the weight balance and the gas Ferrari used to fill the tyres.

He certainly condone the use of Ferrari info, but later used this as a leverage to threaten Ron.

I think this is very poor behavior from Alonso.

Finally, I also think there is some paranoia going on with Alonso. In 2007, he frequently accusses McLaren of playing favouritism with Hamilton because McLaren is British like Hamilton.

No michief has been proven of course. Personally, I think the guy simply underestimated the talent of Hamilton. Suddenly he's not used to pressure from a rookie. As a result he is losing his cool and starts blaming anything that is convenient. He showed signs of similar behavior in 2006 when he lashed out at Schumi during their closely fought title race (said something inthe papers about Schmi being ruthless and unfair).

well.. i read those articles before i put in my post.. i like it that you did as well then at least we would be having a healthy debate on this matter

back to the topic.. well again let see things by putting urself in the shoe of mr. Fernando Alonso. Assuming you are a double world champion, being lured into a team that is team that at one point seems to play 1st driver arrangement implicitly (raikonen and DC at that point, which admitably DC is unlikely to beat Kimi so Mclaren could just that we did it fair but the other guy is just not quick enuff) but suddenly u have a team mate who not only is insanely talented, well trained and groomed by your new team, fully acclimatised to the team personals and BOOM!! his performance is a suprise to many and suddenly everyone is focusing on your rookie team mate and you are faced with enourmous pressure from the media, public and etc..

then to make thing worse (for FA at least).. you need to un-learned the driving method of MICHELIN (which is never easy, its something of an instint once you are used to a driving style, try writting with your left hand instead of your usual right and you will get what i mean).. then your car suffer some unreliability, you got more pressure and you make mistake and then even more pressure.. and SUDDENLY while you are trying to make amendments and with improve form, your god damn team mate screw you with his tactic.. u retaliate and DAMN! you got penalised and your team mate is not.. I think its fair to say if ANY OF YOU are in the situation, you will react the same way FA did, which is threaten your employer caused you think you are unfairly treated, its just human.. btw as many of you know, he cooled down and apologize..

now back to one of your point, of coz he would like to have those information, u are competing and you would want to have insider information so you have more chance of winning, i bet if lewis or even MS have it they wil be happy with it as well.. use it to threaten your boss? well i have explain it with the paragraphs above

the rest of the story is self explainatory as by now things are out of the hand of Ron Dennis, FA and etc due to actions of many individual and not FA alone..

now, you tell me is he really egoistic, selfish and bla bla bla? I dont think so, I mean everyone to some extent is selfish, you protect your own interest but most of time you do it when you think your provoked, which is exactly what FA did..

FA is at fault for Mclaren penalty? he probably is to some extent but blaming it just on him? its just not right.. I mean while i support Ferrari I agree that FIA is probably screwing with Mclaren for whatever reason, (btw i dont think its that severe the punishment, as they are not paying 100m but paying the difference of the amount supposingly received end of the season which depends on their constructer finishing order without points deducted, its still hefty but unfortunately thats the way it goes), the fault lies with the whole mclaren camp, which includes RD and Martin Whitmarsh for not overseeing matters carefully and team members for allowing it...

 

[GT3]

btw, as many of forumners know, i have always rooted for FA, i think he is extreamely talented, competitive and never afraids to speak his mind.. I would prefer he wins the WDC than others cause i think he deserves it..

many of you would therefore think im being biased but then again, arent those who think so are biased as well?

 

[FVel]

Hehe, interesting comments.

I love F1 and the atmosphere but I root for no one and I have been openly critical even of drivers that I like. I'm not singling out Alonso because he's Alonso. I'm singling him out because I think what he did was 'off-colour' and not entirely professional. I think Lauda made good comments that Alonso can be Champion again but he didn't need to engage in the sort of dirty politics to achieve his objective.

I'm not sure if McLaren ever told Alonso he will be given preferential treatment when he joined. I don't think that was part of their contract. In any case, FA ought to know McLaren have a long history of teaming up combative personalities...the most famous pairing being Senna-Prost and the most recent combative pairing being Raikkonen-Montoya.

To be fair, it might not have started out as a combative pairing this time. This time, I believe it really was a case when everyone (including Alonso) was taken completely be surprise by the meteoric rise and sheer talent of Hamilton.

I have been watching Alonso since he joined Renault back in 2002. When he really started making a difference in 2005 and 2006, we did notice that he wasn't particularly gracious when under pressure. Tends to act a little too much like a drama queen when things aren't going his way. I always felt that the benchmark of ultimate professionalism is that shown by Michael Schumacher...the guy is totally committed to winning and to his team. In his interview with Top Gear, the current head of Ferrari, Luca DeMontezemolo, said that there had been plenty of instances when engineering reliabilty failed Schumi and he lost races as a result, but never an angry word from Michael. He just got down to the job on how to make things better. Support the people who support you and the team will grow around you.

It's something you don't see in Alonso. By comparison, Michael never rat out his team for his own gain...which is basically what Alonso did. He was still a very nice guy back in 2005, but his actions in 2007 lost him a lot of respect.

About your comment regarding the pressure on former Michelin drivers having to get used to the new Bridgestones, it should be noted that Alonso won at Sepang this year...and that being only the second race on the 2007 calendar, I would say he got back on pace pretty quickly with the new Bridgestones.

The accepted opinion seems to be that the former Michelin drivers most hurt by the 07 Bridgestones are the ones who are used to heavily loading their tyres before corner entry. This was possible on the Michelins and what they did was to initiate a more aggresive turn-in into a corner that allows them to whip the car into the corner. It benefits drivers with a more aggresive style and cars that are setup towards oversteer. It's something they have to unlearn with the new Bridgestones which do not respond well to this kind of driving style. Last month's 'Racing Technology' Magazine have an editorial about this, and I think this month's 'F1 Racing' magazine also mentioned something about this.

In any case, amongst the front-runners, only Hamilton who debuted F1 in 2007 came without any pre-conceived notions about tyre handling. What little advantage he had over the veteran drives in terms of coming in to the Bridgestones with a fresh outlook, is most certainly no longer a factor so late in the season when everyone else has gotten used to the tyres. In Alonso's case, he appeared to have handled the Bridgestones well since Sepang and remember he also had a comfortable victory reasonably early on at Monaco.

 

[si|verfish]

Nice try by GT3 trying to look for excuses on behalf of Alonso.

But I'm sorry, as far as I'm concerned (and many others as well) nobody came out of Stepney-gate smelling like roses (as highlighted by what I think is my most excellent summary not too far above). The whole affair has gone to reveal the ugly side of each personality involve, Alonso included, who didn't exactly have a very good track record of being nice anyway. Like FVel said, and I've said last season, Alonso keep his facade of a cool character when everything goes his way. When the going gets tough, he starts whingeing and throwing toys out of his pram. Fact and I shall not entertain any arguments on the matter.

 

[zephyr3d]

if u ask me... all this things appears everywhere. Its him being a sore loser. He cannot assume that ppl will give him extra attention just because he was a double champion. If he is matured enuf.. he should know that the winner or the capable one will get the attention. And if he is truly capable, then he should show it... professionally.. if he IS professional.

Think bout it. We did not say that he is not talented, or competitive, or being firm of his thoughts. It is good being confident.. but that is not confident.. that shows that he does not have the confident.. look at the past champions... that is truly confident... Senna, Schumi, Mika Hakkinen.. etc...

We are talking about him being ethical. Simple question... yes, u're his #1 fan.. doing u think it is ethical? I will say no.. big fat NO. I being a mcLaren fan is utterly disappointed with his behavior.. its like some spoil brat.

Ever wonder why Alonso is not doing well at this time? THe reason is he.. himself. He is the root of his downfall. Don't you think so? You can't blame others.. U cannot blame DC for him being lesser of champion's quality... you can't blame the team for siding Hamilton.. You can't blame Lewis for being good.... You can't blame the fans for being "bias"... WHat reason can you give? Ppl hate him bcoz he is a champion?

Nope.. utterly wrong...

 

[Black Mamba]

i think its only fair to say FA is a pretty damn good driver and any person F1 or otherwise would love to protect their status as WC ......both FA & LH have superb cars but seem like hammie adjusted in better than FA....maybe he had extra testing time when FA was at renault....but FA just was protecting his ass as WC and being the dirty little fellow he his, he played his cards to protect himself....selfish ...yes....but if he does not put up a fight , fair or otherwise, he loses his crown and more in monetary terms....he may be a good driver but not a great one, i doubt Mclaren would stop him from leaving.....but even Schumi pulled a dirty tactic...remember Monaco...all becoz ferrari were inferior to renault....as such he was just protecting himself albeit in the dirtiest possible way.....but when you tend to loose the amount he would....would you incarcerate him for unsporting behaviour.....maybe a punishment would be fine......2cents worth..regards

 

[zephyr3d]

what makes it worst is FA is burning down his own "home"... McLaren Team. WTF?!

 

[GT3]

haha good response from you guys.. sort of the response i was expecting anyway, but with certain depth of analysis (esp fvel post who i think was really nice)

okay back to the points, lets start with fvel,

to make things short i will comment only on a couple of things

first, yes probably mclaren never guaranteed a 1st driver status to FA, and likely FA just assumed it, i couldnt really say for sure but i think its fair to think that FA assumed so as there is not a ultra competitive driver apart from KIMI who happens to be transfering to Ferrari.. so yea he probably wrongly estimate.. but i think his arguement is also fair, he is more of an outsider as compared to LH, and nationality probably play a role as well (not only with the team, also with the team's residing country's MEDIA who have always find a way to pint FA down so that could make LH look even more heroic).. he did not feel he is being treated fair and he voiced out.. nothing too wrong with it as like i said in previous post, I like it when he voice out something such as this (as i take in his point)

the other thing, no1 have ever come close to MS in terms of total driver package, he is my all time favourate driver and yet even I have to say he plays dirty from time to time (driving or etc).. its just that FA demonstrate his weakness on other issues (complaint about teams and etc).. its just natural if they are not the same and therefore making life (in this case F1) more interesting to view it

now on tires issue, well I have not driven those tires, and I don believe here do as well so its all playing by ear.. however what im going to do, based on reading and certain amt of experiance in motorsport im going to explain it in this way, which i welcome if any dispute it with facts.

FA did won the Msia round with Bridgestone and Monaco, but other rounds b4 the last few races he lost it and did quite badly in some occasion. these are inconsistency which are often not associate with WC, why? i think its fair to say he probably did not fully get on grip on how to drive it (also because of all other pressure as i elaborated in my previous post).. its like u like a sport for instance, u did well one day and suddenly another day u suck and u dont know why.. i believe if u play sport u will know what i mean.. but a professional sportsman will recover from it, just that how long it takes, in this particular case FA took abt half a season i guess, since his performance lately has been a joy to watch..

also, its fair to say its easier for a person to learn something from scratch compared to have to forget something and learn that something, which is exactly what LH are doing compared to FA. LH also have 1 season of GP2, which runs on Brigestone. and btw, tire manufactures have their philosophy of making tires, and the while the level between GP2 and F1 is great the car are similiar to the driver to some extent, which means tires are design similiary.. which is of coz a great help to a great talent such as LH, who adapt to it better than FA quicker and prove it with races...