new car from proton

[yiheng85]

the blue car (c-note) from geocities is juz a photoshop product :)

 

[pezaL]

its a direct copy from renault clio.in europe renault is nissan joint venture. same as waja which got renault engine if i am not mistaken.

hemm another bullshit from proton.

 

[moe6]

http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/spyshots-2005/P/proton/trm-srm.html
Currently the most accurate pictures of both cars (SRM and TRM)

http://www.auto-g.jp/news/200404/26/newcar05/08_b.jpg
Nissan Tilda

http://www.renault.co.uk/RenaultSITe/puma/GB/PROD_GB/MEL_PROD/en/Clio_cl2/p1.jsp
the Clio

what the fuck are you guys smoking??? (pass me some) Seems to me everyone is quick to hate on proton blindly. I'm not particularly fond of proton either but most of you seem to be targeting them without even looking at it from a more thought out perspective.

on the basis of design, the TRM differs greatly, as much as possible while keeping the same form factor, from the Renault Clio (on which Platform the TRM is based upon). The c-note is just a photoshop done by some guy with too much time on his hands (just like when some other dumb fucker stuck a Proton logo on a Koenigsegg). It is NOT a direct copy of the Clio. The Waja is not a direct copy either and just like the TRM, it is based upon a different Global Platform from Mitsubishi. this SAME platform is used not only on the Waja, but also on the VOLVO S40. So are you going to say that the S40 is a direct copy as well, according to your idea of what constitutes a "direct copy"? I should also mention that the Waja uses both a mitsu engine and a renault engine (both of which are craptacular :D)

Using a ready made platform, most of which that do get sold these days were already planned to be platforms that could be sold to other manufacturers, provides a lower cost to making a car. Retooling and making a 1.2litre Campro AND making a new platform JUST AFTER making the Gen2's platform (which is being used again on the SRM) costs a significant amount. Buying the rights to use Renault's platform, gearbox and engine reduces this cost.

The only valid complaints about Proton are QC, and materials used. Oh, and the fact they're still selling Saga's, what nearly 20 years later? :P

 

[delimaputih]

well said there moe6...

agree with you all the way...note that nowadays, cars produced are almost none existent in terms of originality, not hundred percent overall though...

 

[alexz]

gen2 (and the upcoming SRM) uses waja's platform, which is NOT a lancer/carisma/S40 platform OFFICIALLY. its the same (i have torn down an EVO5 chassis once) coz i think proton reverse engineered the platform so that they still use the same platform but dont have to pay royalty.


anyway i've not heard that proton is using renault's platform for the TRM, just the engine is renault like the waja 1.8 right??

 

[moe6]

Oh thats interesting :). Nevertheless, I'm sure Gen2's platform is a more updated, complete version of the job they did on the Waja, considering the structural rigidity of the Gen2 actually comes out higher than the Waja. Amongst other things. I'm just happy the Gen2 has got nippy handling and has the same engine mounts as the Waja does (if I had one, and I pau 4d, sure dump in a 1.8l mivec :D) hehe.

Anyway i'm pretty sure I've read that Proton's using Renault's platform, at this point it would only make sense. Where else would they get a platform for a small car? :P Might as well use the same platform the engine/gearbox comes from, saves cost. A general purpose mid-sized platform just can't be altered that significantly without a high cost. AFAIK Proton's relations with Renault are decent ever since the Laguna engine deal.

 

[zan]

a fren of mine who works at Proton R&D platform division confirmed Waja, Gen2, TRM and SRM chassis/platform all are designed locally. Proton have the knowledge, equipment and previous Mitsubishi chassis to study and assistance from Lotus. its true, they are capable.

Agrrement with Renault is just for the 1.8 litre engine. That's all because Proton wanted to show to Mitsubishi that it can get help from other manufacturers. As we all know, the 1.8 engine used for CF2 Waja is not spectacular in any way, producing only around 120bhp from DOHC Variable Valve Timing mechanism when other similar engine has 130-140bhp. And it took Proton additional 1 year plus to install it properly in Waja chassis and make them work reliably.

 

[moe6]

a fren of mine who works at Proton R&D platform division confirmed Waja, Gen2, TRM and SRM chassis/platform all are designed locally. Proton have the knowledge, equipment and previous Mitsubishi chassis to study and assistance from Lotus. its true, they are capable.

Whoa okay, very interesting :). (the TRM bit). I honestly did not expect that.

 

[alexz]

yup designed locally. but doing so by eximining very closely the carisma/lancer/s40 chassis . or in other words reverse engineering lah (copying is too hash a word for the effort they put into it...) Remember the proton research pic in newspaper years ago before the waja launch with a mitsu carisma chassis on a test rig??. the waja chassis is very2 close to the lancer/carisma/S40, but they made a few improvements in gen2 esp. in rear susp. linkage (see the huge steel beam connecting the left and right lower arm in Gen2?? great for rigidity, bad coz no way to modify to put 4wd...)

all of this is possible in part thanks to the goverments FA18 buy, which saw proton getting alot of rapid prototyping equipment as an offset to the very expensive FA18 fighters.

AFAIK the TRM is definately going to use the 1.1 renault engine, dont know lah if in this few months of delay they decided to put other types of engine in the TRM.

 

[faisal]

a fren of mine who works at Proton R&D platform division confirmed Waja, Gen2, TRM and SRM chassis/platform all are designed locally. Proton have the knowledge, equipment and previous Mitsubishi chassis to study and assistance from Lotus. its true, they are capable.

Proton bought the IP rights to the GX Platform from Mitsubishi. This Platform was used by the Carisma/S/V40. However the platform has undergone many changes top mounting points/seat points/substructures before it appeared as the Waja. So you can't just take a Volvo engine and expect it to fit staright in without changes to the engine mount brackets and such

 

[ambayah]

Hope this new proton is bullshit.

 

[Izso]

Aiya screw it all. Read the article that moe put up.. I wanna see the SRM GTI MAN!! :D :D :D :D

Or better yet, wait for them to strip down all sound proofing and call it the R3!! :D :D :D :D

 

[TitanRev]

I think this will be a silly question...cause I'm not from the designing part...I want to ask izit very very difficult to design and manufacture a new car from scratch....

 

[Izso]

Titan : I'm no engineer and by no means am I well educated in this field, but I don't think creating a new car design is by any means easy. I mean, there's a lot of factors to take into account before engineering a car; safety, matching the body parts with other body parts, feasibility of the parts, pricing, etc. I suspect there's probably some standards that car manufacturers have to follow as well.

aiya.. no point thinking too hard la. Proton doesn't have the kind of R&D money that Toyota, Mazda, Volvo, etc have cuz they're just new to the car industry and it doesn't have the technical know-how much less the expertise. But someone said they got Lotus in their custody, which is true.

Does anyone know why Lotus isn't designing new cars for them? Or they are just doing suspension only?

Actually, I'm curious. Does Proton own the WHOLE of Lotus or only just Lotus Engineering or just one section of it?

 

[johndoe]

Titan : I'm no engineer and by no means am I well educated in this field, but I don't think creating a new car design is by any means easy. I mean, there's a lot of factors to take into account before engineering a car; safety, matching the body parts with other body parts, feasibility of the parts, pricing, etc. I suspect there's probably some standards that car manufacturers have to follow as well.

aiya.. no point thinking too hard la. Proton doesn't have the kind of R&D money that Toyota, Mazda, Volvo, etc have cuz they're just new to the car industry and it doesn't have the technical know-how much less the expertise. But someone said they got Lotus in their custody, which is true.

Does anyone know why Lotus isn't designing new cars for them? Or they are just doing suspension only?

Actually, I'm curious. Does Proton own the WHOLE of Lotus or only just Lotus Engineering or just one section of it?

Proton & Lotus Team Up To Tap Asia Pacific Automotive Market




SHAH ALAM, May 6 (Bernama) -- Perusahaan Otomobil Nasional Bhd (Proton) and Lotus Engineering Malaysia Sdn Bhd will team up to tap the Asia Pacific market on a bigger scale to provide engineering and consultancy services in the automotive industry, the head of Proton's research and development (R&D) division, Tengku Azizan Tengku Ahmad, said Thursday.

Currently, Lotus Malaysia, has secured a project to provide such services to a leading automotive manufacturer in China.

Proton's R&D facility here, where the industrialisation and automotive dreams of the nation are transformed into reality, provides a complete and comprehensive range of engineering services for the automotive industry as well as for engineering consultancy for any industry requiring R&D expertise.

"With the expertise and all the facilities that we have at our R&D centre, we are now ready to offer our services to the automotive industry," he told reporters after a media briefing on Proton R&D Centre here today.

Although Proton is busy with its own product development, Tengku Azizan said the company has already started providing such services to its local vendors.

To date, Proton has provided services to Bufori and Perodua and also to countries like Iran.

Tengku Azizan said Proton plans to extend its services not only locally but also to other countries in this region.

In working together with Lotus Malaysia, he said it could use Proton's key R&D facilities such as vehicle platforms, protoptyping centre, powertrain engineering & services, homologation & testing, engineering development and services as well as engineering research.

Tengku Azizan said Malaysia today is one of the only 11 countries in the world with the necessary expertise and technology to design, engineer and build a car from ground up.

It is the only country in Asean with such capabilities and one of the few independent car manufacturers in the world.

As one of the engines of growth, Tengku Azizan said Proton has a responsibility to contribute towards Malaysia's industrialisation process.

"The facilities and expertise available at the R&D centre provides Malaysia with the capability to lead the way by offering a complete range of engineering solutions to both local and foreign companies," he said.

Proton, he said, has so far invested RM4.3 billion into R&D over the last five years and is expected to spend an additional RM5.0 billion over the next five years.

Investments in R&D had given Proton its independence as a car manufacturer as it has been able to design, engineer and build its own products in order to compete competitively globally, he explained.

Lotus Malaysia, sales & engagement manager, Karl de Souza, said the company's main objective is to be a centre of design excellence.

"We are to act as a regional hub for the Lotus global network, pulling technologies from Group Lotus, its suppliers, global partners and associations with technology institutes," he said.

Group Lotus' main operating subsidiary is Lotus Cars Ltd, which has two operating divisions -- Lotus Engineering, which provides consultancy services to car manufacturers, and Lotus Cars, whose hand-built sports cars are sold in more than 40 countries.

de Souza said the group would continue to invest in developing local engineering capabilities to offer a highly experienced, cost effective global resource.

As a subsidiary of Group Lotus, Lotus Malaysia offers full engineering services and the transfer of technology and expertise to local employees and suppliers. Lotus Malaysia has just completed its third year of operations and is in the midst of expanding its wings to market its expertise in the Asia Pacific region.

"Our policy is to help build Malaysia as a world's leading R&D automotive centre which will both work in partnership and complement the existing mature manufacturing base in Asia," said de Souza.

He said the strategic direction of Lotus Malaysia therefore is to continue to service the design and development requirements of Proton's projects while developing new opportunities in the Asean, Australian and Indian regions.

-- BERNAMA

 

[alexz]

[
Proton bought the IP rights to the GX Platform from Mitsubishi. This Platform was used by the Carisma/S/V40. However the platform has undergone many changes top mounting points/seat points/substructures before it appeared as the Waja. So you can't just take a Volvo engine and expect it to fit staright in without changes to the engine mount brackets and such

interesting to hear a proton man shedding some light on this. so now we know proton bought the design rights of the mitsu platform... not designing it from scratch as they told everyone about... well thats ok for me... so still got and EVO4-6 chassis underneath the waja lah...

oh to iszo... yes lotus is wholly owned by proton.

 

[alexz]

i'll rephrase that... all of lotus group worldwide is really wholly owned by proton berhad

lotus is small compared to proton.

 

[faisal]

interesting to hear a proton man shedding some light on this. so now we know proton bought the design rights of the mitsu platform... not designing it from scratch as they told everyone about... well thats ok for me... so still got and EVO4-6 chassis underneath the waja lah...

oh to iszo... yes lotus is wholly owned by proton.

No shame in that. Platform sharing is normal among Auto Industries, just as engine sharing. That's y we have a Chrysler (Daimler Chrysler) engine in a Mini owned by BMW.

Or Toyota/Peugeot/Citroen sharing a platform for their new Citycar.

Or Ford and VW sharing a platform for the Galaxy/Sharan/Marbella MPV.

These companies are industry Giants so I do not understand the flak the National Car Co is getting for doing the same.

 

[alexz]

yeah i understand... even the new Myvi shares underpinings with the Toyota passo/daihatsu boon/daihatsu sirion/toyota aygo/peugeot 107/citroen C1 (phew the list is soo long). there is nothing to be ashamed about it. everyone is doing it nowadays.

the problem is that all this while proton announced around the world that they designed the waja chassis on their own, now only i heard (from you faisal) that proton bought the chassis IP rights from mitsu. why cant proton just thell the truth about it earlier??

 

[jools]

yeah i understand... even the new Myvi shares underpinings with the Toyota passo/daihatsu boon/daihatsu sirion/toyota aygo/peugeot 107/citroen C1 (phew the list is soo long). there is nothing to be ashamed about it. everyone is doing it nowadays.

the problem is that all this while proton announced around the world that they designed the waja chassis on their own, now only i heard (from you faisal) that proton bought the chassis IP rights from mitsu. why cant proton just thell the truth about it earlier??

they can't face the truth, therefore can't tell the truth too!

i'd put my money on perodua MYVi if i was in the market for budget car.